The Yak-9? In most cases, the Spitfire had better performance as an all-purpose fighter. Join in if you dare! In the Pacific the Hellcat was 19:1 and the Corsair was 11:1. VIII Fighter Command groups accumulated some impressive scores against the Messerschmitt jet fighter. It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, The P-51 is best known for its long-range escort duty, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for Seen here minus its Junkers Jumo jet engines and surrounded by it's 30mm Mk 108 cannon shells. The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack.. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. Hollywooooood! I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. The P-51 achieved several "firsts." However, the availability of both machines and trained pilots was becoming an insurmountable problem for the Luftwaffe. (f-106deltadart.com)] I confirm that I want to send my data to receive news and promotions via email. This website uses technical and profiling cookies. (LA Times)] Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith] For this reason, the data transferred to GA will be made anonymous through a proxy system called "My Agile Pixel" which will replace your personal data such as the IP address with anonymous data and therefore not traceable to you. Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. 9 years ago. Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. In that way the Mustang would have equal section of the enemy aircraft. They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. The German Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (Swallow) was the first operational jet fighter and appeared in air combat towards the end of World War Two. Log in or Sign up to interact with the community. The squadron landed at 1508.'. Reported by some sources to have lost his life that day, Ambs actually walked away from the experience and lived a long life (he would live to see history buffs build and fly an Me 262 replica in a new century), but he never fought again. As I closed on him, I I was always under the impression the ME262's ratio wasn't that hot as many were shot down on takeoff or landing? 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. Blitz VI. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. An Me 262 appeared out of the cloud and dived vertically into the ground. Ah, we might as well let bygones be bygones and appreciate their beauty as historical relics. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] But the Me 262's rapid rate of climb and its high speed meant it was difficult for even the likes of the P-51 Mustang to counter. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. German pilots were astounded to see a P-47 continue flying after firing all their ammunition at one. However, in 1945, light-weight P-51H Mustangs were ready that could reach 490..500MPH. Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. Is it correct to use "the" before "materials used in making buildings are"? The Me 262 was the first operational jet fighter in history. ' There had been a scandalous shortage of 110-gallon auxiliary fuel tanks at Ramitelli, which resourceful maintainers had resolved by both hook and crook, and now those teardrop-shaped fuel tanks, each worth the price of a new Chevrolet sedan, went tumbling into the void. WinbiTV. Whatever the case, a short This is due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft.. Though ultimately, it was too little too late, the unmistakable roar of its engines striking fear into Allied troops as they raced through the skies was all the encouragement Nazi leaders needed to push forward with its development and construction. Set your Throttles to Full AB and Join The Aviation Geek Club! The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. Each fuel drop tank is jettisoned, As the skies they try to cleanse. On March 18th, 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. U.S. Air Force photo. He joined the 361st Fighter Group in . Wrote Brown in his after-action report: I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. In a February 5 interview, Dr. Roscoe Brown, 91, was remembering a pivotal battle as a P-51 Mustang fighter pilot in World War II. Place of processing: Ireland Privacy Policy. The A-4a and A-5a were both reconnaissance versions. So which aircraft is better? We directly support the repository at WW2.ORG, and several other worthwhile projects that add to the historical record. Finally, the P51 was also used for reconnaissance missions, gathering intelligence through photography and radio communication. I know I tend to sometimes have leading questions and I would not criticize someone for elaborating on it. B-17 waist or turret gunners perhaps? its strengths, the P-51 was more than capable of taking on the feared Me 262 on The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack. The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Browns P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. Somersault-while-firing trick was actually done by Richard Candelaria of another USAAF squadron was just two P-51H fuselages welded together, wrong, Developed and produced by North American Aviation, this aircraft was originally intended to serve as a long-range escort fighter for Allied bombers. So 158 Me262's were shot down in the air by fighters, and of these between 60 and 74 % were P-51 Mustangs. flame come out near the right wing root. Browse more videos. The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. During the WWII, did the German Luftwaffe ever have mixed units of Bf-109s and Me-262s, and if so, which units and/or which airfields? You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. You are using an out of date browser. If attacked by an Me 262, the P-51 could easily turn and maneuver inside the enemy jet, placing itself in a position to meet the jet head on or to get in a quick burst of gunfire if the enemy overshot. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria]. To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. I did not see the pilot bail 1:21. This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. WinbiTV. Approximately 1400 models have been built, Menu. US Air Force (af.mil): The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. . With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. 1 x cannon in propeller hub Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) 111711 (Hans Fay) May 1945 World War 2 - Frankfurt Silver. Rolls-Royce (Packard) Merlin engine and drop tanks, the USAAF finally had a Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 WinbiTV Follow Browse more videos Playing next 7:30 FMS 1700mm P-51 Mustang Red Tail with Killer Planes Supermax Crashproofing 5:49 Underground Messerschmitt Me 262 factory "Weingut I" [Vineyard I] Mhldorf am Inn, Germany (May 1945) PVT.Snafu 4:30 Messerschmitt ME-262 A-2a Net Maquettes 43:47 The fight against the Third Reich ended on May 8, 1945, but the fight for equality lasted longer. This was made using. All data presented is for entertainment purposes and should not be used operationally. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between There were four but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued their respective air forces. in an Me 262. The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51. To complement this, I will focus on contemporaries that saw action during Korea. Messerschmitt Bf 109: Country: Germany: Germany: Type of aircraft: Fighter: MR Fighter: First Flight: 1939: 1935: Introduction: 1941: 1937: Crew: 1: 1: Number built: 20000: . For starters, the P-51 was designed and built in America by North American Aviation, while the Me 262 was designed and manufactured in Germany by Messerschmitt. survive a jet confrontation but only if strict, disciplined 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets. It wasnt easy. So, which one is better? NA P-51 Mustang vs FW 190 Butcherbird Altitude = 25,000 feet61 5.10 Attrition of the Luftwaffe Fighter Force in Early 194463 . On March 24, 1945, the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, escorting heavy bombers to Berlin (which was farther from their base in Italy than from American airfields in England). The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. ), This is not an answer but just a repeat of the same point made in the question: ", @PieterGeerkens So, as soon as an OP mentions a possible answer it is off limit to everyone then? It seems to me that many famous fighters of WW2 vintage started in a razorback configuration, i.e p-47,p-51, and supermarine spitfire. or Both Me-262 and P-51H could only sustain their top speed for no more than 10 minutes without damaging their engines 3x ME 262s were shot down; 1x ME 262 was destroyed by the gunners on US bombers, 2x ME 262s were shot down by P-51 fighters of the 339th Fighter Group.Ofw. but it's a pretty good book ;-), I may take a look at that book, thanks. jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of I think the battles of Layette Gulf and Philippine Sea must seriously boost the Hellcat's ratio as by this time the aircraft it faced were largely outdated and flown by inexperienced pilots. See also this old Google Groups thread, probably back from Usenet times: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ. By combining the three tables, of known Me262 losses; claims by USAAF; and claims by RAF, in Foreman, Me 262 Combat Diary (1990), assuming that the German numbers are correct, and also that all the dates are as stated, I have obtained the following statistics. A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. Furthermore, if flown to Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 WW II has got to be the F6F as has been previously stated. Follow. Personal data that are processed:Tracker; Usage Data. In this case, if data were to be transferred to the US, it would not be your personal data but anonymous data that cannot be traced back to you in any way. Fw-190 vs P-47 bf-109. (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, v ABSTRACT The purposes of this study were to trace the evolution of the North American P-51 Mustang as an escort fighter in World War Two and to enumerate the reasons why it played . It is the only rocket-powered fighter aircraft ever to have been . was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific ", "On November 8, 1950, the then Capt. This Google Analytics integration anonymizes your IP address. He hit the Its legacy lives on through its usage in civilian air races, military operations, and Hollywood films like Red Tails and Pearl Harbor.. Try the F-15 Eagle. By clicking on "Customise" you can select which profiling cookies to activate. It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. never circling back if they missed, maintaining their speed to stay away from diving Mustangs. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. How do/should administrators estimate the cost of producing an online introductory mathematics class? Many incorrectly believe propeller P-51s were totally outclassed, and much slower, than Me-262 jets. Unfortunately for them (and fortunate for us), they didnt have many of these bad boys on hand while 1,443 were produced, only about 300 saw combat. B-17s didn't have door gunners. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. German Me-262 pilots reported they could not outrun a P-51 in a dive May 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ], [ 07. Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. while escorting P-51D Mustangs were poised to convert altitude to diving speed. Project P.1065. (unknown artist) they knew they would be completely outnumbered and The African-American airmen had long ago proven that they could fly and fight, and that they could escort bombers, but the battle in which they bagged three German jets clinched the deal. 1:01. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? Ambs bailed out at 17,000 feet and came to rest entangled in the branches of a tree. The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet was a German rocket-powered fighter aircraft. Meanwhile, in the P-51, fitted with the Its climb-rate was phenomenal, twice as much as a P-51H or F-82, This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. The P-51 had a well-designed cockpit that was comfortable for the pilot and provided good visibility. ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] $21.87 $ 21. [ref: Ziegler, McLaren]. Fw-190 vs P-51 fw-190-wurger. Nearly all fighters of WWII had same basic puller-propeller monoplane design Misunderstandings about Twin Mustang was it The German response was the construction of a "flak lane" of over 150 emplacements of the 20 mm Flakvierling quadruple autocannon batteries at Rheine-Hopsten to protect the approaches. Only veteran or lucky German pilots could survive in a Me-109. One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). Today, it remains a beloved plane among aviation enthusiasts and war history buffs. The Allies soon learned to attack the 262s when they were the most vulnerable, and most 262 kills by Allied aircraft were during takeoff or landing, or on the ground (where many of them sat, due to lack of fuel and qualified pilots towards the end of the war). he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. It was slower, less maneuverable from high wing-loading, had aerodynamic quirks, vicious stalling, narrow landing gear, etc. This was probably Leutnant Koberts The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Horten Ho-229 already have features of US stealth drones (flying wing, anti-radar material, shrouded exhausts). The world's first operational jet fighter. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). Google Fonts is a service used to display font styles operated by Google Ireland Limited and serves to integrate such content into its pages. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. Nowotny had commenced operational flying four days earlier, although its first Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. Ah, the age-old question. The ratio's for Mustangs was ~ 10.7:1, the P-47's ~ 7.5:1 and the P-38's were ~ 2.6:1. But it was very slow and fragile. wasn't surpassed until advent of jet fighters like F-86 and MiG-15. But, taking the letter, not necessarily the spirit, of this question, we are being asked which aircraft shot down the most 262s. . Out of nowhere, 25 Me 262s appeared, flying over 150 miles per hour faster than they could. each of whom have been credited with a shared kill. The maximum speed of a P51D was 437mph whilst the Spitfire was slightly faster at 448mph. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. tight turn into the attacker at just the precise moment before the jet Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of the 8th Air Force were sent to bomb the shipyard, dock facilities and an oil refinery in Hamburg. C.E. Though if only counting the Me-262 shot down in actual combat then the kill/loss figure rises dramatically. Ziegler's book describes He is the a fast climbing turn to the left. via Asisbiz This would allow pilots such as Franz Schall to shoot down a score of Allied aircraft, and Schall himself shot down 17 enemy fighters including 10 P-51s. [ 07. Report. 1,000ft. Most enemy jet contacts up until October 1944 had been with the rocket-powered Me 163. Im sure that more Me 262s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Mes in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". I caught up with Why was the Me 262, one of the first operational jet fighters in history, developed and built? Robert F. Dorr Lets take a look. I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter.. Me-609, Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. JavaScript is disabled. North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51D Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 375 FS, 361 FG Yellowjackets E2-D Detroit Miss (Lt. Urban L. "Ben" Drew) 1944 World War 2 - Bottisham The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. Browse more videos. P-38 was a quiet comfortable plane to fly, he was awarded a medal, but fact was kept off official records since MiG-15 pilot seemed to be Russian. (conservapedia.com), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. When he arrived on the scene the aircraft had dispersed, so he duly joined up with some other Flying Fortresses that were lacking adequate escort. Top speed of Me-163 was 600MPH. Oberleutnant Bley crashed his aircraft, although he was able to escape. IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. Actual top speed depends on altitude and other factors. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung [Maintenance] (1944 . Just one solo German jet attacking, First proposed to the air ministry in the summer of 1938 as a research aircraft to use the new BMW P 3302 gas turbine engine, Messerschmitt's Project P.1065 was pursued by a design team led by Woldemar Voigt. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the first jet fighter to enter operational service. U.S. Air Force photo. Spitfire developed into a different airplane (Spiteful), The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. There was black smoke and an explosion.. Your email address will not be published. Three other Me 262s, flown by Oberleutnant Paul Bley, A Mustang trying trick of dropping flaps still couldn't quite turn with a Spitfire. I kept horsing back on the stick and my bullets The ace shot down a four-engined bomber and a P-51 for his 257th Many escorting P-51 pilots shot down Me-262s by simply doing a Split-S maneuver Unknown to Schubert, Koehler's aircraft never reached England. Clicking on "Refuse" or the X will refuse all profiling cookies. Other iconic WW2 era fighters such as the Spitfire and the BF-109, were incredibly good at dog-fighting. The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. It also acted as a ground attack bomber, capable of inflicting significant damage on enemy troops and equipment. In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. Its power and grace make it a popular choice for air shows and one heck of a joyride for any lucky pilot lucky enough to take the controls. Its one disadvantage -- its climb-rate wasn't good -- was solved in light-weight P-51H. or was based on Playing next. FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. As the Wiki article confirms: Allied pilots soon found that the only reliable way to destroy the jets, as with the even faster Me 163B Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground or during takeoff or landing. The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. Mustangs believed to have been flown by 1 Lt Edward Buddy Haydon of Of actual air-to-air kills of Me 262s (not those claimed during takeoff or landing), which Allied aircraft scored the most Me 262 kills? The Schwalbe (German: " Swallow ") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. [ref: Ziegler for 515MPH]. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. As told by Robert Forsyth in his book Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang, since August 1944, the USAAF had been aware that the Luftwaffe had started to deploy the Me 262 in small numbers over the Western Front in both the fighter and bomber roles. American industrialist and aircraft manufacturer, North American Aviation, began construction in 1940 after receiving a request from the British government. opportunity to fire at the jet in a head-on pass trading gun for But there's one area where the P-51 shines: range. Let's find out! was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. or Mustangs shot down early MiG-3 propeller fighters (??). The Me 262 could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. . (Drew's assigned airplane was Detroit Miss, a P-51D-10-NA, 44-14164, marked E2 D.) Urban L. Drew joined the U.S. Army Air Corp in 1942 and trained as a P-51 fighter pilot. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this Application, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. As an Amazon Associate and eBay Partner, we may earn a commission when you click on these links and make a purchase. The men already knew they could fly and fight. Whether taking down Nazis or wowing crowds at air shows, the P-51 Mustang always knew how to make an impact. The Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first fully operational turbojet fighter and saw service in the later years of World War Two. ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II.
